In the News...

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Mendo, Jun 30, 2010.

  1. Hakon
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  2. Wulfghard
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    Watchu' Talkin Bout?

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  3. Warrior
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    It's a lifestyle baby...
  4. Urfang
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    But...but...but...

    They want NEW toys!!!!
  5. Vingnir
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    Sounds like someone's got stock in Boeing, or someone with stock leaning on those guys...

    Typical MIC, and dirty shadow politics at the highest levels of our military.

    Looks like B1-B production is in El Paso. The ultra expensive replacement. Texans contact your congressmen. That is, if you believe in efficient military, and not gigantic money holes, for 'too big to fail' military arms producers. of course, I wont be holding my breathe; Many states prefer dining on pork while declaring independence.
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2015
  6. Vingnir
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  7. Eigeir
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    So true Ving, when I am being cynical, I think people that are famous but forgotten do these things to get back in the news. But that's only when I am feeling cynical, the Black Sabbath guys never were into a lot of headlines, not like todays crop of "entertainers" that rely on head lines.

    Ok except Ozzie, he could do headline hunting.
  8. Eigeir
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    Ving, again we agree... Living in the land of Boeing I see this stuff all the time, bids not going to the best product or lowest bid but to funnel money to friends of the administration, or of the Joint Chiefs:

    "In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist."

    Dwight D. Eisenhower

    Some one will retire and get a very high paying job with the company that gets this contract.
  9. Hakon
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    I'm not so sure that's a case of porkbarrel politics so much as inter-service rivalry, the USAF tends to have the attitude that they're better than the army and that ground troops have a secondary role in modern warfare. This goes all the way back to the Army Air Corps in WW2 which was split off to form the USAF post war, reflected in the strategic bombing doctrine. Basically the dream of air power advocates since the 1930's has been the idea of winning wars 'cleanly' (granted it's only clean if you're not the one getting bombed back into the stone age). This attitude has always conflicted with the A-10's role, it has been subject to multiple shut down attempts from within airforce command over it's entire service life from the 1970's. They resent having to support army operations closely and have never willingly done so, and yet they've also blocked army attempts at developing and deploying their own fixed wing ground support aircraft on the grounds that such would impinge on USAF strategic prerogatives.

    Simply put; the USAF brass don't want to operate A-10 because it runs directly counter to their longstanding doctrine of air superiority and strategic bombing strikes.
  10. Vingnir
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    I think you have a valid point there, but, I think your missing my point of the bigger picture.

    What your pointing out, is just a point of possible manipulation for a business interest to sell his intention to 'those of that mind' among the Air force brass. Or the 'business interested brass' to sell it down the chain of command because of what you mentioned.

    I mean, I'm fully aware of all that (come on,-havent we been in these same discussions, literature, etc) I just considered it subtext of what i was saying - a manipulated selling point, of what I stated above. - an unmentioned detail of how one would sell it sure, but not a probable exclusive motivation.

    Maybe some in service truly feel that way, that are in a position of decision, but that's far from likely solely whats going on here, in terms of the Warthog being replaced.

    The B1B and most all alternatives are cash-cows, comparatively. I wouldnt begin to think there isnt local congressional pressure to build the more expensive model/ordinance systems, for regional contracts for their state, or assume complete political objectivity on the part of those in service & position to make it happen.
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2015
  11. Warrior
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    Not to mention the unconstitutionality of the National Security Act of 1947 which created the Air Force as a separate branch. Tell me why the "word-of-law" constitutionalism in the Tea Party never mentions this...

    All in all I think it's a combination of the two, and probably many more issues spider-webbed in that only some of are transparent to outsiders looking in. In an increasingly Joint Service atmosphere where Navy and Marine Corps aviation are taking up more and more of the roles "traditionally Air Force" the Air Force is also fighting to remain relevant and has chosen to do this by identifying themselves as the "high tech" service.

    Their "it's not science fiction" commercial series, they're attempt to highlight their historical achievements (most of which were actually achieved by the Army; Air Corps or otherwise), and promotion of aircraft at a rate and number that is unnecessary to stay competitive with even our nearest technological military competitors (even while China's new stealth fighter can compete with the F-22 it is not being produced in numbers near to what we are, so unless we're planning of fighting an air war of attrition...) does more to highlight their cost and premadonahood than any actual functional advantage.

    Even in a review of military specialties conducted by a think tank aimed at cost saving, the only occupation the air force provides that is not duplicated by other services is Special Operations Weatherman. An occupation that could very well be adsorbed into general Special Operations Community if the Air Force was, in fact, eliminated as a cost-saving measure, reabsorbed back in to the Army (making it's existence constitutional once more), or any other solution I can foresee.

    This just isn't a fight by the military-industrial complex, but a fight for relevance by the youngest (and most illegal) branch of the Armed Services. Their only weapon seems to be hugely expensive, unnecessarily advanced aircraft that remain actually unproven in any combat role, and I fear, if one day tested will prove the pilot's skill more a factor than the technology backing him (a fact ground forces have learned again and again, even if they occasionally forget).

    Unfortunately for America, the taxpayer, and the patriot (not nationalist) this is not a fact we will probably learn until the first F-22 is shot down while flown by some hot dog plot thinking his aircraft makes him invincible.

    This is the branch that has been caught promoting cheating among the officers testing for qualification in our nuclear missile arsenal, caught covering up rape-rings in their service academy, and caught losing and misplacing nuclear weapons; not to mention the only Air Force in the world that has managed to get a stealth aircraft shot down (an F 117 in the late 90s).

    Then again I'm a proponent of an overall Military Unification Act, so I might be slightly biased.
  12. Vingnir
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    On a side note,

    I'd imagine, we are not far off from going non-manned on everything but troop/supply transport, IF efficiencies have anything to do with anything. (Not saying they do, heh)

    We are at a technological point, where the onboard fighter and bomber pilot are technically and monetarily obsolete. Its just a matter of applying that tech at this point, and ironing out a few details, it seems to me.

    Gonna be alot of resistance though by the big contractors, to build aircraft that dont cost 8 or 9 figures though... They'll find a way to increase the price though probably... make the ordinance out of the souls of unicorns or some such...
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2015
  13. Vingnir
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    Agree, accept for one detail. You left out 'friends of congressmen' as probably the primary, and by far historically, the biggest hand deciding these contracts.

    I could be wrong, but the Bush/Cheney relation to military contracting seems to be quite a departure/anomaly in terms of 'administrations' getting their hands as dirty in military contracts as congress traditionally does, but maybe I'm just missing info to ther contrary.
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2015
  14. Vingnir
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    Last edited: Jan 31, 2015
  15. Warrior
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    Hard to imagine that at one point that was considered the pinnacle of aerial dominance. Still awesome job, and from scratch.

    I love the line:
    "I made a flying model version of the plane when I was 30 and decided there and then that one day I would build a full-sized version. My wife, Sarah didn't believe that I'd do it until one day the metal and the wood arrived at the front door."
  16. Mendo
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  17. Vingnir
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    Thats insane.

    That needs to be appealed and decided at a higher level. You just cant have that level of highway robbery, and expect things to hold together, if that narrative is completely accurate. Faith in some semblance of base fairness, atleast on the books, is the only thing that holds our economic system together.

    I doubt that this wont result in a reversal at some point or atleast a footnote in the start of a law regarding similar.
  18. Warrior
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    It's just things Wall Street and corporate banks have been getting away with for years, and often receiving bonuses for doing so. It's just "modern business practices" moving from the banking to creative markets.

    As if it already wasn't hard enough to make a living as a writer...
  19. Urfang
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    No kidding. He who has the gold, buys the rules.
  20. Warrior
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